Batman Begins Review Chat

Spoilers: this article is intended for those who have seen Batman Begins.

Jason: I thought Batman Begins was much more ambitious than any other in the series, and it completely dropped any connection with the original comic book feel. I thought it overreached, however, and I had some problems with the philosophical overtunes.

Lee: I thought it was fun, but that was about it.

Jason: But it still managed to be a strong action movie ? unlike The Hulk, which falsely claimed to be ambitious and still overreached.

Lee: I could've gone without the first act. I thought Tim Burton handled the parents' death a lot better. I thought that it was terribly clich? in Begins.

Jason: I completely agree. I made a point of watching that scene before I watched Begins. I didn?t like the fear aspect here. And in some sense, I felt there was a political overtone about the criminals being victims of the economic system, and that ruined it. Having Joker walk out of the shadows with a gun was a much better setup. Someone joked that the dad was a bit of a wimp because he kept saying '?It's ok, it's ok?" And everyone laughed when Katie Holmes got upset and started slapping Bruce.

Lee: The parents subplot was out of a family movie ? just sappy and corny.

Jason: Yeah, his dad was too nice, but I liked the Bruce Wayne character, none of the other Batman?s developed him very well. I thought he looked awful in costume, and the voice didn't work at all. I assume most people overlooked that, but it was hard for me not to grimmace everytime Batman spoke.

Lee: I thought it was a little weird for such a build up to becoming Batman, but I thought it worked nevertheless. I was like, don't we know what Batman looks like? Anyone buying a ticket just wants to see him as Batman, and anything leading up to that is sort of cheating you a little bit. I know it's called Batman BEGINS, but you don't really need to show us details we already know.

Jason: Compared with the last two, it blew those away. I haven't seen them since they were in theaters, but it was like Joel Schumacher was not even trying. The fight scenes looked like a Broadway show ? whom were they trying to appeal to? This was a real action movie and I think people were so glad they weren't getting Neon dancing bad guys.

Lee: I thought Christopher Nolan was a good choice for this, but I felt his roots from Memento and Insomnia were showing because there was more of a story than action. That can be a good thing, but there wasn't all that much action. And how much of a story do you really need for a Batman film?

Jason:: The training setting looked right out the beginning of Insomnia. Did you notice any characters from Memento?

Lee: Yeah, the motel clerk/manager. But that?s all I noticed.

Jason: I didn't notice it until someone pointed it out to me at the end of the movie.

Lee: To me it felt like the musical score made it seem like there was more going on than there actually was.

Jason: That's interesting you say that. On AMC Shootout, they talked with Hans Zimmer about scores increasingly dominating movies. Peter Gubber talked about how the first three minutes of the first Batman was just music and the test audiences loved it and clapped.

Lee: I thought the musical score here almost made the film. The fights were pretty straightforward, but the score made it feel pretty exciting. I get the feeling Nolan saved it just by the way he scored it.

Jason: Look at who did the score ? Hans Zimmer and James Newton Howard. It's hard to match that kind of talent.

Lee: Yeah people at my Batman Begins showing were applauding just when the music was starting over the WB logo.

Jason: I understand that the origin story was based on the comic, but I just didn't like the quick transition of the League of Shadows turning into the enemy. You would think that they would have tested him earlier in his training.

Lee: I thought Ken Watanabe was kind of distracting. The second he showed up, all I was thinking was: "Oh, you're that guy from Last Samurai." He didn't come off as an actual character. I felt the same way about the Memento character. I didn't even know Gary Oldman was in the film until afterwards.

Jason: Gary Oldman is great at doing that. I thought the Gordon character would have been a bit tougher, but Gary Oldman is great at not typecasting himself. The contrast between him in Harry Potter and Batman is excellent.

Lee: In the same argument, most people probably didn't know Edward Norton was in Kingdom of Heaven.

Jason: Well that was easier to hide. I thought Batman Begins better established the secondary characters. Batman has never really had a team of good guys behind him. Despite all the fighting, it was actually Gordon who saved the day.

Lee: I thought Michael Caine was the most believable secondary character. Morgan Freeman just came off like Morgan Freeman.

Jason: Yeah, it was just a matter of time before Freeman took over the company. As soon as he was fired, you knew that was a setup for him taking over the top position. Keep in mind the past co-stars; I thought this batch was a lot more real than Robin or Batgirl.

I had problems with the Wayne family. They seemed a little too good to be true. The father tries to save the city and his family helped the underground railroad. Yet, I thought Bruce Wayne's character was much more developed than in the previous movies; he seemed a lot more human.

Lee: I still think Keaton was the best Batman.

Jason: He was the best, but Christian Bale was the best Bruce Wayne.

Lee: Perhaps. I got a little annoyed at the end of this one with the whole Joker thing because you know someone is going to have to contend with Jack Nicholson's performance, which I think is a no-no.

Jason: Yeah, I don't know why they would want to trend into that territory. If anything is sacred in Burton's version, it has to be the Joker.

Lee: But I seemed to be in the minority because it got everyone in the theater going nuts.

Jason: Obviously Catwoman is ruined beyond repair at this point.

Lee: I didn't think Batman Returns was all that great, just a pretty good movie.

Jason: They cut the Joker out of the murder of his parents, so I guess the previous films never existed in this timeline.

Lee: I just think Joker is classic. Imagining someone filling Nicholson's shoes is like watching the trailer for Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and looking at some of the casting choices.

Jason: It was interesting how Liam Neeson wasn't the typical evil villain, but I didn't really like him as a bad guy.

Lee: He was rather one-dimensional.

Jason: Katie Holmes didn't seem like a good fit. She wasn't Natalie-Portman-in-Star-Wars-bad, but her scenes were the only ones that were unintentionally laughed at.

Lee: They had a really good cast for this, but it seemed like the cast kind of hid the caliber of the script. Like you'd see these established actors and like them immediately, and if they had any less established talents your reaction would be a bit different. I can imagine some of them saw the script title and were like, "How can I turn down Batman?"

Jason: Cillian Murphy looked perfect for the role. It's hard to see him in any role other than evil villain. He looks really awkward in Red Eye trying to be normal, at least for the first half of the trailer.

Lee: I was kind of surprised my audience didn't make any outbursts when Katie Holmes was onscreen. I figured there'd be Tom Cruise jokes.

Jason: He already proposed. Not bad timing...guess they're trying to take a page out of Mr. and Mrs. Smith's ad campaign.